In this episode of Data-Smart City Pod, Professor Steve Goldsmith interviews Kelly Jin, Vice President for Community and National Initiatives at the Knight Foundation and former Chief Analytics Officer for the city of New York. They discuss the promises of data, digital infrastructure, and outcomes-focused governance.
In this episode of the Data-Smart City Pod, Professor Steve Goldsmith interviews Kelly Jin, Vice President for Community and National Initiatives at the Knight Foundation and former Chief Analytics Officer for the city of New York. They discuss the recent Infrastructure Innovation Summit, cohosted by the Knight Foundation and Data-Smart City Solutions at Harvard University, where folks from cities across the country convened with leaders in the federal, private, and academic spheres to discuss the future of urban environments. Jin also talks about why cities must start with the question "what are we trying to achieve?" before collecting data and implementing new technology, in order to remain resident-focused.
Music credit: Summer-Man by Ketsa
About Data-Smart City Solutions
Data-Smart City Solutions, housed at the Ash Center at Harvard Kennedy School, is working to catalyze the adoption of data projects on the local government level by serving as a central resource for cities interested in this emerging field. We highlight best practices, top innovators, and promising case studies while also connecting leading industry, academic, and government officials. Our research focus is the intersection of government and data, ranging from open data and predictive analytics to civic engagement technology. We seek to promote the combination of integrated, cross-agency data with community data to better discover and preemptively address civic problems. To learn more visit us online and follow us on Twitter.
Betsy Gardner:
Hi, this is Betsy Gardner, senior editor at the Harvard Kennedy School and producer of The Data-Smart City Pod. Since we started this podcast, we've had great support from our listeners, and to make sure that you don't miss an episode, please find us under the new Data-Smart City Pod channel wherever you listen. Make sure to subscribe so you get each episode, and thanks for listening.
Steve Goldsmith:
Hello, this is Steve Goldsmith, Professor of Urban Policy at Harvard's Kennedy School in the Bloomberg Center for Cities, with another podcast of a leading individual in the country in the areas of digital innovation in cities.
Today we're with Kelly Jin, currently Vice President for Community and National Initiatives at the Knight Foundation, formerly Chief Analytics Officer of City of New York, Director of the Mayor's Office of Data Analytics. Kelly, welcome.
Kelly Jin:
Thanks Steve for having me this morning.
Steve Goldsmith:
Important official in two other foundations, and worked in the White House, but that would've taken the whole podcast to introduce you. So I abbreviated it. You have been in many places. I've got a few specific questions for you about innovation and digital infrastructure, but could you start by just telling us a little bit about your job at Knight Foundation and the mission of your work now?
Kelly Jin:
So the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, we are a $2 billion private foundation based here out of Miami, Florida. And we have work that really pushes forward on how can we further more effective, informed and engaged communities. And the original intent of our donors, John S. and James L. Knight, was all about local journalism. And so when you think about a lot of the day to day work, certainly that I've done, and I know Steve, that you are doing and have done before, the core ethos around what does it mean to be serving in an effective democracy and what investments might we make in that realm? Those are the higher-order North stars that we're searching for day to day. And then in terms of what I actually do, I do have a lot of meetings day to day. But in terms of the tactics we have within the communities team, which is the team that I lead, we're really searching for who are the people, what are the places and what are the ideas that are going to be at the forefront of cities, specifically Knight cities across the country.
This is where the Knight Brothers actually had their newspapers in. And so I'm very privileged to be able to spend my day-to-day thinking at this very, very high level, but then very pleased to be able to work alongside grantees on the ground, who really are seeing how can we further more informed and engaged communities on the ground. So that's been quite a delight. I've been here for about a year and a half, and I think a lot of the time that I've spent both federal, national, local, I have not yet served in state government. I'm not sure I will anytime soon... But for me, just reminds myself how important it is right now that we remember what's at the forefront and what are the needs that our communities have, given all of these dollars that are flowing today, public dollars on the national scale.
Steve Goldsmith:
Good. Well, speaking of public dollars on the national scale, so we all came together a 100, 125 cities recently at a Harvard event sponsored by Knight. We looked and talked a little bit about the role of federal government, funding from the federal government, sense of community, digital infrastructure. You were a key part of that whole effort. What were you trying to accomplish? What is it that cities who listen to this podcast should think about, as it relates to digital infrastructure and how they can improve their services and engagement of their local communities?
Kelly Jin:
So I think this was... I can't remember Steve, earlier this year, late last year, at some point we saw each other in Miami. And I was sharing with you that across our communities, they pretty consistently said, every insert name of federal program or funding stream, was a once in a lifetime opportunity to be injecting dollars into new programs or existing programs that they had been really planning and engaging residents on for quite a while. And Knight Foundation picked up on this early last year, I think this was March or April that the American Rescue Plan Act was signed and passed. And we basically, over the course of a year, year and a half now, really keeping our ears around saying, how can we be partnering alongside city halls and communities, to be supporting, whether that is literally through the dollars public-private partnerships around the funding, or some technical assistance that we might be able to provide to connect folks together.
And so I think at a certain point we looked at each other and said, 'Well, why isn't anybody funding some sort of network to bring people together and talk about the innovations that are happening around these federal funding streams? 'And then I remembered I was a funder, and then we should probably bring folks together at Harvard. And so that was a bit of the origin story of the convening itself. For me, it became really, really important, because we've all been in our little hermit holes over the last three years. And although we may talk about digital infrastructure and technologies on this podcast session, really just been keen, on what are the ways in which people need to reconnect in person. And so it was that much more important to me that we got together folks from cities across the country, certainly Knight communities and from various different organizations, to bring them together and see what was possible by having folks focus their time and energies getting to know and to communicate with others they may not typically do.
So that was a bit of the background and then what I hope to get out of it, we'll see, I think when you're looking at the longer term outcomes of any convening, it takes a bit of time. I want to see in the next six months, 12 months, what are the projects, what are the connection points that were made as a result of that convening? And have people gotten sharper in terms of their programs and investments and how they're thinking about them? And then we certainly had a number of federal officials, appointees who were there, very diplomatic of what they could say and couldn't say in those conversations. Be interested to see which communities are able to advance in their applications as well. Partly informed by what they learned and kind of what they heard during that convening a couple weeks ago, as well.
Steve Goldsmith:
You've been in some interesting places like New York City. Just stand back a little bit. Help us think and maybe stimulate the imagination of people who are listening. What could they do with data, digital infrastructure, technology to drive higher quality services that result from these infrastructure investments? In other words, you're probably too young to remember the phrase, This is not your father's Oldsmobile meaning. We don't want to build the same outdated vehicle slash infrastructure as we did before. How should policy makers think about the promise of digital infrastructure as they go about spending a trillion dollars here and there?
Kelly Jin:
Yeah, I'll, Steve, I'll reflect on a few points. I am familiar with that phrase for the record. So I am familiar, and actually when I was serving in Boston City Hall, Jascha Franklin-Hodge, who is now Chief of Streets for Mayor Michelle Wu, he used to get up and talk about something that government does a lot of, is instead of moving from almost the horse to a car motor vehicle, just trying to establish or develop faster horses, right? Thinking about what are these s-curves that have occurred over time with technology? And sometimes we focus a bit too much on being iterative with what we have right now, and not focused on what the next leap is and what's coming around the bend and the corner. And so I've seen this firsthand across many different communities and jurisdictions by now. I'll probably zoom in on my time in New York and then I'll also talk about Miami.
In New York, and this is a story I've told a couple times, but I'll tell again today. As Steve knows, because he served as deputy mayor there, there are a lot of processes that exist within the city of New York, many of which, things have been done the way they've always been done. And I worked alongside quite a few, very, very excited, passionate data engineers, planners, GIS analysts and specialists. And I found over time, actually, Steve, that oftentimes the issues we had in making the pitch around data infrastructure, is that we focus too much on the process and the systems and the software, and not enough on the actual outcomes that those systems and infrastructure will help to achieve at the end of the day.
So I'll give you a very clear example of that. When COVID hit, we'd spend all this time, I've chatted with many different departments about, it's all about data engineering and what if we did data integration, what if we procured these systems and processes and really nobody could get that excited about it, unless you had data in your title and you worked at an agency or you worked within the IT department.
And I remember when COVID hit, there was this moment because it just became so clear what the outcomes were that we were trying to achieve. We were trying to support decision-making by policy makers to have access to economic data that they were not able to get access to, because it was outside of the city. They were trying to get more and more real time data that had to do with health and hospitals and some HIPAA-protected information.
And so all of a sudden it became very clear we need to go by explaining the outcomes first and that'll help us with the pitch and the improvements around digital technologies for the city. And that was something not just the mayor's office of data analytics, but other offices across the city were, I'm going to say in the span of that summer. So summer of 2020, were able to get a lot of clarity around. We ended up establishing mayor's office of data analytics alongside the mayor's office of operations, Chief Privacy Officer's office.
We were able to establish New York City's recovery data partnership, which meant that we basically stood up the digital infrastructure to bring in data from companies outside of the city. And that was to help inform data offices and analysts to make better decisions, by integrating more streams of data and information. But I kind of come back to this Steve, which is just later on now, serving in philanthropy, that that level of clarity and focus was only possible when you could really stay focused on who's the customer, what kind of outcomes are we trying to seek at the end of the day? And using that to back into what are the outputs, what are the upgrades that we need to infrastructure, certainly in conversation with budget offices. And that's true not just of New York City's OMB Office of Management budget, but other budget offices that I've engaged with before.
And then the second example that I will give here is about some of the promises. So the Underline here, which is soon to be 10-mile linear park that runs below the metro rail here, which is elevated. That idea sprung about close to a decade ago at this point. It was all about, how do you beautify that space? How do you make it into a public space that anybody can use and engage with? And certainly just literally make it prettier, instead of something that was all concrete and cement. And over time, again, they thought about, what were all of the communities and residents that they were serving and will be engaging with along this 10 mile stretch in Miami. And so they started to focus on digital infrastructure. Knight has been supporting them in hiring a chief technology officer, now chief innovation officer. They've done a lot of thinking and programming around what broadband access will look like along that linear trail.
And then they've also started to figure out what are ways that they can further engage community residents, whether that's kids in schools or other age groups and demographic groups, and actually being able to interact and kind of book a yoga class as a way to further engage. So again, regardless of where I've gone, these digital intersections with infrastructure and innovations continue to pop up. I think the leaders of the organizations that are most clear on who they're serving and how they would like to continue to have sustainable impact, are the ones who are able to move the funding around the digital infrastructure as well.
Steve Goldsmith:
Let me push on two of these issues before we finish up one's community engagement and the other is IoT devices, right? Let's deal with your community engagement comment for a second. Knight is all about community engagement in its journalistic background. What digital tools do you see that cities should consider as they encourage engagement?
Kelly Jin:
I feel like this is very dated Steve, but if cities who are listening don't have 311 in place, which is true, there are cities out there that don't have 311 in place that don't have what at this point, I feel like larger municipalities have already, many of these technologies have adapted and been adopted. I keep coming back to it because I think Steve, the kind of ultimate engagement alongside community is what are the issues and what are the needs happening on the ground? A city that shall not be named, their 311 only operated during business hours during the workweek. And so I was in said city, actually, my friend's car got towed and I was like, 'guys, I got this. I'm just going to call 311,' except it was Saturday and 311 was closed. And so I think Steve, of this kind of still going back to the basics and fundamentals around digital infrastructure as the underpinnings of how service requests can come into a city hub.
And then for that to drive improvement and resident satisfaction, as well as how a city can prioritize. And so when I think about a smart city, Steve, I'm sure you're like, 'well, what new fancy technologies is Kelly going to talk about?' I still think about 311 most days as the foundation for the infrastructure.
And then I will just for our listeners who are like, 'Oh, I can't believe Kelly mentioned 311.' I'll also talk about what is future-facing and leaning. I've spent the last two years reflecting a lot about what the real applications of Web3 could be within cities. And so for anyone who's not familiar with terms like DAOs, decentralized autonomous organizations, there are increasing decentralized ways of governance and communication that I hope in the next five-ish years could radically change how governments budget. We've also been talking about participatory budgeting for many, many years.
And think about what the really, really interesting applications might be for stuff like Web3 that right now really only gets talked about in the crypto blockchain sphere. And so for me, that's something that we've been watching from the foundation. I acknowledge at times these technologies really are a bit cutting edge, perhaps a bit over their skis in terms of the promises that they're making, compared to the actual improvements with equity or efficiency that they could make within communities. But yeah, I wanted to share these two, what it feels like in my head, two polar opposites, but the kind of core digital infrastructure, literally how you surface and respond to service requests, in one extreme. And then the other extreme is what is already coming down the pike. And I'm not sure that governments right now have the technical expertise and communities as well, have the technical expertise, to assess and figure out how these technologies could be incorporated, and could be incorporated in a way that helps them do a better job servicing residents at the end of the day.
Steve Goldsmith:
So if we think about sensors, we can make better decisions on competition for sidewalk and curb space. We can have better information with respect to environmental conditions in often distressed neighborhoods. Digital infrastructure, meaning IoT sensors, allows us to extract a lot of data, albeit in an effort to anonymize. So how would you recommend as a Knight official and former New York City official that cities think about the collection of IoT information as part of this process of improving their services?
Kelly Jin:
I think for me, it always goes back to: what decisions are you grappling with? And I say that because I've worked on and been a part of many projects where the promise of data collection is something that doesn't deliver. So you can kind of stand up all of the infrastructure to collect truly massive amounts of data. And a year, two years in, say, 'well, we have all this data, what could we possibly do about all this data that we've collected?' And so my advice for communities across the country, across the world, is to really focus in on: what are you trying to achieve? And what are the actual decisions that you have, that you are looking for information to help make? I've also been on the other side of the tables working alongside data scientists who have frequently said, If I just had the perfect amount of data and you had the perfect business and policy question, then I can answer all of your questions.
And that also doesn't happen. And so I would actually encourage anybody on this call to spend more time figuring out how to be an effective translator. How do you navigate what existing data sets are available today, and how do you suss out what policy, business, program-type questions are bubbling up? And then to be able to bring those individuals, agencies, offices, community groups together to have real conversations as to how the data can actually meet the questions that are out there. And so I do feel, Steve, right now, the promise is like, we've collected all this data, it's going to make us that much more efficient. But if you haven't done the prep work and the planning work to say what questions you're going to be able to answer better, then you basically end up in a bit of a spiral, people looking to somebody else to tell them what to do, in a bit of a circular way.
The thing I will repeatedly come back to... We had a lot of pithy sayings in Boston City Hall that I've kind of carried on over time. We oftentimes said the remit of Boston Citywide Analytics team was to help others ask and answer better questions. And that is something that I've taken to heart, regardless of what organizations that I've worked with. So that that's kind of one takeaway. And then when I went back to the White House in 2016, 2017, we always joked in my little group that counting is really hard. And so that is something I would also say, Steve, when you're thinking about actually how many people are utilizing public spaces or bike lanes, it's oftentimes a question of, literally how many people are passing by a space. And so you've got certainly a lot of sensors out there tracking these bike counts. My question is, again, so what? Where are the dollars?
Are you asking a question about where you should be prioritizing the installation of lanes or perhaps the safer lanes in community? Or are you trying to figure out just simply who's actually engaged here? Perhaps what are the income classes and have we actually engaged everybody within the community in these new infrastructure or public spaces that are out there? So I think of these kind of two sides and being able to balance those two sides with the data availability and the demand.
And this goes back to my earlier point when you start thinking about digital infrastructure. Because your pitch has to be, what are the decision points that we're going to make? How are we going to do that better? And then what do we have in place right now? And I really do hope for folks that work within large systems with very large databases and data warehouses, people look to what they have today and try to build upon and iterate upon what's available today, as opposed to kind of blowing everything up and trying to establish something new. Because when you establish something new, you basically end up backing into all of the challenges that you had with the existing software and systems that you had before in place already.
Steve Goldsmith:
Kelly, thank you very much for joining us today. We've been listening to Kelly Jin, the Vice President for Community National Initiatives at the Knight Foundation. Thank you, Kelly for your insightful comments. We appreciate your time.
Kelly Jin:
Thanks Steve for having me. We'll talk soon.
Betsy Gardner:
If you like this podcast, please visit us at datasmartcities.org or follow us @DataSmartCities on Twitter. And remember to subscribe at the new Data-Smart City Pod channel on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. This podcast was produced by me, Betsy Gardner, and hosted by Professor Steve Goldsmith. We're proud to be the central resource for cities interested in the intersection of government, data, and innovation. Thanks for listening.