Professor Steve Goldsmith and co-author Kate Markin Coleman discuss their newest book, Growing Fairly: How to Build Opportunity and Equity in Workforce Development.
In this episode Editor Betsy Gardner interviews Professor Steve Goldsmith and Kate Markin Coleman about their newest book, Growing Fairly: How to Build Opportunity and Equity in Workforce Development . They discuss the inspiration for this book, how this moment is ripe for equitable development, and why they're ultimately optimistic about workforce reform.
Music credit: Summer-Man by Ketsa
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Betsy Gardner:
Hi, this is Betsy Gardner, Senior Editor at the Harvard Kennedy School and Producer of the Data-Smart City Pod. Since we started this podcast, we've had great support from our listeners. And to make sure that you don't miss an episode, please find us under the new Data-Smart City Pod channel wherever you listen. Make sure to subscribe so you get each episode, and thanks for listening.
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Betsy Gardner, Senior Editor and Producer of the Data-Smart City Pod. We have a special episode for you today. I'm going to interview our usual host, Steve Goldsmith, and his partner and co-author, Kate Markin Coleman, about their new book Growing Fairly: How to Build Opportunity and Equity in Workforce Development. Thanks for being on this side of the microphone, Steve. Our listeners are familiar with you as the host, but it would be great to have you and Kate introduce yourselves, and your new book, for this episode.
Steve Goldsmith:
Well, like I said, I used to be the host of this podcast. So I'm now on the other end, this is a curious thing for me. As I hope our listeners know, I was the Mayor of Indianapolis and the Deputy Mayor of New York, the Chairman of AmeriCorps for a decade. I'm a professor of urban policy at Harvard's Kennedy School and the co-author with Kate of the book, Growing Fairly.
Kate Markin Coleman:
And I'm Kate Markin Coleman. And I began my life in the private sector, transitioned to the social sector when my colleagues and I sold the fintech firm that we ran, and then spent 15 years first at the Chicago Y and then subsequently at the national YMCA.
Betsy Gardner:
Great. So why did you want to write this book specifically about equitable growth?
Kate Markin Coleman:
So there were a number of reasons, and I'm going to go with the the central reason, which was that both of us were profoundly troubled by what we're seeing in terms of the growth of income inequality. So that was the core reason. For me, there were just a couple of other reasons. One, I sit on the board of an organization that funds poverty programs and saw lots of things that happened locally, but they were happening on an ad hoc basis. So trying to figure out how you pull together all of the good work that is out there, but that is so fragmented it's not having the effect that it could, that was also a motivation.
Steve Goldsmith:
We started had pre-COVID with a puzzle, which is back when I started as mayor, cities were in a really tough place. They were thought to be pathological and hopeless, and they got resilient. And then they kept getting more and more prosperous and more and more young adults wanted to live in downtown areas. Yet, there was this increasing disparity in inequity and income growth. So, I mean, these seemed to me, the puzzle was, there are a lot of assets here. Why is this problem even exist, and how could we think about making it go away? And making it go away by lifting the bottom up and giving people more chances. So it was try to find the answer to the puzzle that motivated me.
Betsy Gardner:
So in writing this book and in looking to answer these questions, you talked with a lot of different folks about their job searches, and their education experiences, and their motivations. What surprised you and what did you learn from these conversations?
Kate Markin Coleman:
Yeah, let me start because we spoke to hundreds of people. And what I learned was that we need to think about the definition of skilling in a substantially more expansive way. So technical skills are great, but many people need work on their executive skills, which are what going to allow them to participate in a training program in the first place. So that was, I think, the number one thing that surprised me. The other thing wasn't a surprise Betsy, but I'm going to mention it anyway. And that is a lot of the things we saw reinforced, at least for me, some of the beliefs I already had, which is that this isn't actually rocket science. We can always get better, but we kind of know what works. The question is, how do you put it together? And then the other thing which reinforced is, successful organizations, while their approaches may be different, they have certain things in common. So those were my, I would say, big takeaways.
Steve Goldsmith:
There was a lot, because the way we approached this book was different than other books we'd done in that it was driven by the words and voices of the individuals, both those in the programs helping and those who were helped. So I think the biggest surprise I had was that the context in which any single individual works, and the challenges that he or she face, they're all solvable. They're really solvable. It may be transportation, it may be childcare, it may be skilling. But on an individual personalized basis, they're solvable. And the more people we talk to, the more encouraged we got, or at least I got, about how we could come out of this in a better way. So it was a pleasing solution, albeit one that'll be very difficult to implement, but a very hopeful, half full view of the world.
Betsy Gardner:
Kate, you mentioned that there are some things that are in common across the organizations that you saw. Do you want to touch on that briefly?
Kate Markin Coleman:
I mean, they're obvious, but there is a willingness on the part of those organizations to evaluate what they do and to get back and say, "If it's not working, what do I need to change?" So there's a willingness to make change. There is a culture of experimentation. This is just standard stuff. Emphasis on evaluation and measurement, and a willingness to go outside their own walls if someone else knows how to do a piece of it better, and to call that entity in to support the whole person that they're working with.
Betsy Gardner:
Sounds like there's almost an element of humility in what you're talking about as well, on the organization's part.
Kate Markin Coleman:
I think that's fair. And I think there's also a commitment on the part of the leaders of those organizations to really do what it takes to help people, but also to learn from the people that they helped.
Betsy Gardner:
So one of the interesting things that came out of these conversations in this research was the organization of the principles of inequitable workforce. The idea that individuals, institutions, and systems are the three main spheres of control. So where did that come from? And can you talk about why you organize them this way? Because I know you have the schema in the book. And you can maybe talk a little bit about how those principles fall under those spheres and explain for the listeners what that structure is.
Kate Markin Coleman:
This was essentially qualitative research. When you do qualitative research and you start to hear the same things again and again, you begin to feel like you found the patterns. So essentially, we started drawing a series of conclusions from all of the interviews we did. The first set of conclusions, I would say, were the most fundamental, which is that the skilling needs of different populations across this country were different. The range of people that need to be served by the system is very broad. And if you don't start with people and the needs of those people, you're destined to repeat the same problems you had before, or the same inefficiencies or ineffectiveness that you had before. So that was the core thing on which we built it.
Then it became clear that while, again, as I said before, while the programs may vary in their approach, there were certain things that most of them did the same. So those were the principles that you would apply to programs. And so those were things like personalizing based on the needs of a particular individual, supporting that individual, thinking about learning in context. So that's everything from skill development at the same time people are learning career readiness skills, to skill at the same time that adult basic education skills are being delivered. Also then, providing bridges to employment, whether that's through apprenticeships, or internships, or relationships with employers.
Again, we saw those four things happening in all the programs. And then the last bucket is what needs to happen regionally. And so those are systems kinds of changes, things like using skills as a currency. So skill-based hiring, understanding in-demand skills in a region today and projected tomorrow. So heavily based on data, things like improving the communities where people come from. Because you can support a learner and provide transportation to one person, but that's a systems problem too, for the larger community. Importance of transparency and performance. Individuals need to make decisions about where to invest their time and resources in terms of training programs. So those kinds of systems level things.
Steve Goldsmith:
Obviously, Kate's answer was comprehensive so I'll just punctuate it. One level, this goes back to some other work we've done. At one level, bureaucracies, agencies. And I use bureaucracies in the positive sense. Bureaucracies that have money, they receive money from a federal, state, or local government, or they are a part of one of those governments. They operate with a set of rules and they're very narrow in their approach, just by definition. But if you want to look at this problem that we addressed in the book Growing Fairly, it has to start with the individual who needs the help and personalizing it around that individual. So that was the first organizing principle. How do you personalize it?
But at the same time, if you want to go to scale, you can't personalize every single individual in a community. So what would that look like if you went to the system level? You need to reform the system. If you step back and looked at this, I think one could make the provocative argument that if our neighborhoods worked the way they're supposed to work, we might not need any of these programs in the first place if people had an opportunity to grow up in a functioning neighborhood that was safe and they weren't affected by either environmental factors or violence, if they had folks that they could have social networks where they get a reference for a job from a friend or from a parent.
So if those social networks worked, if the neighborhoods were safe, then many of the programs wouldn't be necessary. But of course, they don't, so the programs are necessary. So you need to start at the individual level, then you need to expand that a little bit in terms of how the organizations should work with. And finally, if you want to change the world, you have to change the system. And the principles seem to be there to change the system. As Kate mentioned, organized regionally, around skills, around data, make the system more effective and fair.
Kate Markin Coleman:
And deliver collaboratively.
Steve Goldsmith:
And deliver collaboratively.
Betsy Gardner:
I love talking about the neighborhood system, like how it relates to a skilling system and employment system, and how it starts so much with the people. Can you provide an example for us where this is being done well?
Steve Goldsmith:
Yeah, I think I'll go first because Kate uses all my ammunition when she responds. So it depends what you mean by "this" in terms of going well. Kate, in particular, interviewed a number of organizations that are truly exceptional and it's going well organizationally there. But I'm going to take your question at the system level. Like, where does it all come together? Because we saw wonderful stuff all over the country, but not regionally coordinated in a collaborative way that we met in that principle in the book.
And I would hold out Houston, the Greater Houston Partnership that has brought together business, and nonprofits, and community colleges, and training organizations quite effectively using data. And the San Diego Workforce Development Partnership. And it's a partnership and it's not just a workforce development board. It's a workforce development board at its core, but with a nonprofit that surrounds it, made up of business representatives and educational representatives. Those two organizations have the clout, and the data, and the money to make a difference in their community by bringing the parts together. So I would hold them up as examples.
Betsy Gardner:
So Steve, you mentioned that you started this book pre-COVID, which is a fortuitous time to be looking at something like this, because there are going to be a lot of future industries, especially with new funding coming into infrastructure, green technologies. And then there's also The Great Resignation going on right now. So there's a lot of shake up in the whole market. Looking ahead, how can cities prepare folks for these future industries like green construction, while also paying attention to the employees who are in more of a legacy industry or things like service jobs or childcare, which are very place-based?
Steve Goldsmith:
Well, I think the common theme would be in the growth clusters in your region that may be stimulated by green investment or construction dollars, but let's just say any growth area in your region will have, embedded in it, a set of core skills. And you can project what those skills might be. And so then this is an important question because then the intermediaries that we referred to, like in Houston or San Diego and the other places we hope will sprout up, will then help arrange the training to more of that bucket of skills that would help the growth in the community.
So that could be advanced manufacturing in one city and it could be construction in another. There's probably green jobs everywhere, frankly, just given the importance of the environment and the amount of money that's going into it. But what we suggest in the book, Growing Fairly, is that we look at the data, and project the growth, which it can be done. And then we disaggregate that growth into the skills necessary to stimulate and support it and then train for it. And that's how I would go about it.
Betsy Gardner:
So what are the opportunities for cities right now with pandemic recovery efforts and The Great Resignation?
Steve Goldsmith:
There are lots of hard working folks in low paying jobs. And those people are learning skills every day and demonstrating that they own those skills. They have those skills. They show up for work on time. They balance the books at the restaurant before they leave. They manage two or three other employees or so. And yet, they're struggling because the demands for childcare, and transportation, and family responsibilities are so great.
We can identify skills those folks have. And The Great Resignation, if that's what we want to call it, has created openings. And the growth in technology jobs, meaning mid tech jobs, like how to operate the x-ray machine and the like, those are there, and they're important, and they're unfilled in most places. So if we put in place the rungs in the ladder that are missing to help the hardworking folks in low paying jobs move up, and then we put in support services that help those who need those now open service jobs, we will recreate the mobility ladders that used to exist in our cities coming out of World War II. And that is what we hope will happen in a post-COVID recovery.
Kate Markin Coleman:
It's less The Great Resignation and more, The Great Reshuffling. Because what's happening is that, yes, there are people who are retiring in greater numbers at a faster rate than they had done, and that creates opportunity. But in fact, the number of jobs that are open right now, a lot of what's happening is people in the lowest paying jobs and lowest paying sectors are moving to slightly higher paying jobs in the same sectors for slightly higher wages. What we're not seeing sufficiently, and what Steve alluded to, is those people moving and being trained to move into mid tech or jobs with longer term upward career trajectories. So we need to be careful with our terms Great Resignation versus great reshuffle, I think, is what some people call it.
Betsy Gardner:
I think that's a really interesting point if you're still moving in that industry. But if that industry has a very low ceiling, how much mobility do you really have?
Kate Markin Coleman:
I mean, where I see opportunities, the fact that people are willing to move and believing that there is an opportunity to move, to me, suggests a door open to beginning to think about, "What are other opportunities that I might take advantage of?" Because one of the things, we have some primary research in the book. And in order for someone to actually consider taking the next step for education and training, or actually acting on that consideration, they need to believe that their life circumstances will improve. And so we're beginning to see that belief because people are willing to shift jobs.
So I'm going to go out on a limb with this one because I've been called Pollyanna before. Here's why I'm optimistic. One, as I mentioned earlier, it's not rocket science. And we actually know some of the things that work. Number two, and this is where our politics may differ a little bit, but I look at the Good Jobs Challenge and the way the Good Jobs Challenge is structured, the respondents have many of the elements of the things that we believe are required for a successful workforce development system.
So collaboration, providing wraparound services, thinking through how curriculum and training fits with where skills are going. And very interesting responses at the collaborative and aggregate level to the Good Jobs. So that makes me optimistic. And then this is maybe a small thing, Betsy, but there is an initiative called My Goals. And My Goals, so I talked earlier about the importance of executive skill development.
What I didn't talk about is what happens to kids who are in a constant state of poverty or trauma, its adverse impact on executive skills development. My Goals is a demonstration project for people who are receiving federal housing assistance, either through vouchers or they live in public housing. But to get things to scale often requires a government program. So when you see this cognitive behavioral therapy bringing executive skills functioning into the coaching, that makes me optimistic, because that's the right direction to move in.
Betsy Gardner:
It sounds like someone in the administration read your book if Good Jobs Challenge aligns so well with what you've written.
Steve Goldsmith:
We'd like to think that.
Steve Goldsmith:
Kate and I spent two years, counting on it, brief hiatus for the middle of COVID, talking to individuals around the country who are every day helping someone get a better job. We've talked to of people in those programs. We, with our research assistants, got the evaluations of those programs. We met with workforce boards. We visited cities. We talked to individuals whose lives were transformed by a better job. This is all hopeful stuff. It works. And the only question now is how to put it together to help people have a larger scale. We have identified some principles, and hopefully, we believe in what we wrote because we certainly do. And if those principles are applied in a region, a lot of people are going to be helped. We are half full people as a result of what's in the book, and we are quite confident and hopeful that it will make a difference.
Betsy Gardner:
This is great. I'm so glad we could talk about your book. It's been a really good conversation and I'm sure that our listeners enjoyed getting to hear this. Growing Fairly is actually out right now and is available through Brookings Institute Press or wherever you purchase your books.
If you liked this podcast, please visit our us at datasmartcities.org, or follow us @datasmartcities on Twitter. And remember to subscribe at the new Data-Smart City Podcast channel on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. This podcast was produced by me, Betsy Gardner, and hosted by professor Steve Goldsmith. We're proud to be the central resource for cities interested in the intersection of government, data, and innovation. Thanks for listening.